Hillsborough County Transportation Initiative (Part 2 of 2) #tampa
October 27, 2010
Attendees: Eric Odum and Brian Willis, Esq. Becker & Poliakoff
Date: October 26, 2010
Subject: Hillsborough County Transit Referendum: Additional One Cent Tax. What’s its Purpose? What Does it Mean to YOU?
EO: Good afternoon and welcome to another Market Minute, I’m Eric Odum from Net Lease Commercial Advisory, and this is the second part of two parts of the discussion of the Light Rail Initiative and the One Penny Tax. I keep saying Light Rail Initiative; it’s really not light rail initiative, but…
BW: It’s a one cent Investment.
EO: It’s a one cent Investment and its more than light rail, and we have with us Brian Willis again, and he’s an attorney with Becker & Poliakoff, and also the Citizens Advisory Board for TBARTA to talk with us today a little bit about some of the questions and concerns of the light – I keep saying light rail initiative – it is the “Investment Tax.”
BW: Yeah, the Investment Tax
EO: Ok, terrific, so the penny Investment tax, the penny Investment initiative is going to be on the November ballot, correct?
BW: Yeah. That is correct.
EO: Ok, so you know we talked in the first component about why we need to have it, what are some of the things that are going on with the plan and why do we need it? Obviously this is the first and foremost question people ask – I have my car, I drive to work, why do I really need this thing for?
BW: Well, we talked a little bit the last time about the growth that is projected for this area….how we’re already having trouble meeting the demand with the capacity of our roads as it is. We continue to grow. There was a slow down with the economy, but now we’re seeing population growth again. We’re running out of capacity on our roads. So, we need this ….. Our transportation is the key to moving people around and when we look at comparable cities for instance, the amount of time the people in Tampa spend in traffic delays is significantly more than what people in our competitor cities do. If you look at someplace like Charlotte, Tampa has consistently almost doubled the traffic delays every year compared to what people in Charlotte experience.
EO: It’s going to end up making us the highest taxed county in the state of Florida, so is it really worth it to make that Investment, knowing we’re going to end up having these taxes.
BW: There are a number of issues there. The one thing is taxes. People get focused on taxes, but people continue to move to New York City. They continue to move to the places that have high taxes because they have high quality infrastructure. I think that’s what the question really should focus on. Is this worth doing? What’s the value we get from this? More importantly, we look outside Florida, when you look at comparable Sunbelt cities it’s not going to be a – our tax will still be comparable if not lower than competing Sunbelt cities outside the state of Florida. So, I think what people want is they want value. They want a valuable infrastructure and the tax is not going to place us outside the range of what other competitive cities …
EO: Ok, so Charlotte, Atlanta – you’re telling me that they are still going to be at higher tax than…
BW: They have over 8% sales tax
EO: So what would we be at?
BW: We’d be right at 8%. We’d be competitive if not lower than other Sunbelt cities, and some of those other Sunbelt cities and states have Income Tax as well, which we don’t have here.
EO: I think the initial rail is running to the airport first, right?
BW: The initial plan is that it would run from the airport to downtown, including the West Shore area. The second part would be downtown up to USF, and eventually the Cross Creek area at Bruce B. Downs.
EO: So two rails, and really people running between downtown Tampa and USF. That’s a fraction of the transportation routes that are being run by car everyday, so these people that say ‘I’m not going to use it’ – It’s a legitimate complaint, right?
BW: Well, there’s clearly going to be some people who aren’t going to use it. First off – HART’s done a study of this – 43% of traffic takes place within the corridor that’s roughly going to be served by this light rail. So, everyday, even if not every person is going to use this, you’re either taking people off the roads within the corridors people are traveling or your giving them an alternative means of transportation in that corridor. And I think, as I’ve said, you’re getting people off the roads. So, it’s not just whether you’re a user of the light rail or not, but its also helping insure that our congestion doesn’t continue to build up and slow everybody down.
EO: Well, ok, I hear you, but let’s say I live in Brandon. I’m not going near that downtown to Tampa corridor, so what’s in it for me? How would people in Brandon care about this, or people in the Northeast part of the County?
BW: Well, a portion of it, we’ve been focused (talking) on light rail, but a portion of that tax is going to go fund road improvements throughout the county. It’s also going to fund a bus system that’s going to serve bigger area, bigger portion of the county. I think the third thing to keep in mind, I know people in Lutz and Brandon, and they say, “Well I don’t want more roads in my neighborhood. I don’t want more traffic.” And what we’re building here, which is a transit system which serves the entire Tampa Bay region, is about ensuring that we don’t have more roads. It’s about ensuring that we don’t just continue to over build our suburbs. So, I think a vote for this is a vote to help preserve the character of places like Lutz and Brandon.
EO: From a road perspective, Brandon, are they really going to see roads (and increase in transportation options) out of this. I mean is Brandon really going see…..They’re going to vote for a penny tax. Are they really going to see road (and transportation) development?
BW: There are projects across the county to fix different problems that have developed, and you can actually go – HART has a website they have developed where you can go neighborhood by neighborhood and find out what exactly is going to come to your portion of the neighborhood from this investment.
EO: That’s on the HART website?
BW: You go to HART and they have a special project page which is called the “HART alternative analysis” page, and you can type that in Google – H A R T, and you’ll get to the page and find it.
EO: Terrific. This thing is going to cost a lot of money. It seems to me like it’s really high. So let’s talk about that and whether this makes sense or not.
BW: I think people don’t realize how much money we’re spending on our road system. We’ve had some projects that haven’t been that controversial, like the I-4/Crosstown Connector, which everybody thinks is worth what we’re investing in. That project’s been priced out at $350m to complete it.
EO: Ok, so the Crosstown Connector is like a mile of road.
BW: It’s a mile of road.
EO: It takes you from the Port of Tampa, to I-4.
BW: It’s a great project. It’s going to get a lot of road traffic out of Ybor. It’s going to make Ybor more amicable to neighborhood development. It’s going to connect Crosstown and I-4 so that all those trucks from the Port don’t have to go through Ybor neighborhoods.
EO: What is the rail going to cost, let’s say the rail is going to run from Downtown Tampa to the Airport, what is that going to cost?
BW: Well there, they’ve got a couple different alternatives that they are considering, but you’re looking at roughly a $500-$600m price range for that portion of the rail. Another example, which is the north portion of that segment which would connect downtown to USF, that portion is coming in right under a billion dollars, about $900m. Well, the alternative to do that, if we don’t build up the rail capacity, we’re going to have to increase the capacity of the roads. So, we go from what’s an 8 lane road now to a 12 lane road. They’ve priced out that project and it’s going to cost $2.2 billion. So, for the same length of rail traffic, we’re less than half the price of what it would take to increase road capacity.
EO: So, to increase 275, you’re at $2.2 billion…. to build a rail, you’re at $900 million?
BW: That’s about right, yes.
EO: When you ask people around Hillsborough County, you hear this very frequently… “This is going to be a situation that we’re going to be funding forever.” And so, what do you say about that?
BW: Yeah, and I hear that all the time. That’s what people always say. They say we don’t want to build this if it’s not going to produce any income back. There was an editorial in the Tampa Tribune saying well they’re only going to get 8 or 9% of the revenue from the fare boxes. Well, I drove here from Clearwater today, and I didn’t pay anything. There were no tolls on my way here. So, they didn’t get any fare box revenue on my trip. I-275, Dale Mabry, Kennedy, Howard Franklin Bridges – They all don’t pay for themselves. The other part of that is we look at what we built with the rail system. People have studied the numbers, AAA, Forbes Magazine say that you’re looking at about $12,000 per household per year that gets devoted solely to car expenditures. So it’s incredibly expensive system pushing…
EO: Car expenditures meaning insurance on your car, gasoline…
BW: Car insurance, payments, gasoline, maintenance, new tires, oil changes, you know the whole thing – everything that looks into getting you where you need to go in your car. And, that cost is extraordinary. It’s pushed off to the individual users. So, sales tax is going to cost the average household about $125 per year, it’s about 1% what the household is spending on their car budget right now.
EO: Ok, well thanks again Brian. I do appreciate your time, and again, if you’re interested, you can find out more from the HART website and the Moving Hillsborough Forward website. Thanks again for joining us and for more information, can they contact you at Becker & Poliakoff.
BW: I’m at Becker & Poliakoff they can contact me. Our offices are in Clearwater. We serve the whole Tampa Bay region. Look for us on Google.
Hillsborough County Transportation Initiative (Part 2 of 2) #tampa
Attendees: Eric Odum and Brian Willis, Esq. Becker & Poliakoff
Date: October 26, 2010
Subject: Hillsborough County Transit Referendum: Additional One Cent Tax. What’s its Purpose? What Does it Mean to YOU?
EO: Good afternoon and welcome to another Market Minute, I’m Eric Odum from Net Lease Commercial Advisory, and this is the second part of two parts of the discussion of the Light Rail Initiative and the One Penny Tax. I keep saying Light Rail Initiative; it’s really not light rail initiative, but…
BW: It’s a one cent Investment.
EO: It’s a one cent Investment and its more than light rail, and we have with us Brian Willis again, and he’s an attorney with Becker & Poliakoff, and also the Citizens Advisory Board for TBARTA to talk with us today a little bit about some of the questions and concerns of the light – I keep saying light rail initiative – it is the “Investment Tax.”
BW: Yeah, the Investment Tax
EO: Ok, terrific, so the penny Investment tax, the penny Investment initiative is going to be on the November ballot, correct?
BW: Yeah. That is correct.
EO: Ok, so you know we talked in the first component about why we need to have it, what are some of the things that are going on with the plan and why do we need it? Obviously this is the first and foremost question people ask – I have my car, I drive to work, why do I really need this thing for?
BW: Well, we talked a little bit the last time about the growth that is projected for this area….how we’re already having trouble meeting the demand with the capacity of our roads as it is. We continue to grow. There was a slow down with the economy, but now we’re seeing population growth again. We’re running out of capacity on our roads. So, we need this ….. Our transportation is the key to moving people around and when we look at comparable cities for instance, the amount of time the people in Tampa spend in traffic delays is significantly more than what people in our competitor cities do. If you look at someplace like Charlotte, Tampa has consistently almost doubled the traffic delays every year compared to what people in Charlotte experience.
EO: It’s going to end up making us the highest taxed county in the state of Florida, so is it really worth it to make that Investment, knowing we’re going to end up having these taxes.
BW: There are a number of issues there. The one thing is taxes. People get focused on taxes, but people continue to move to New York City. They continue to move to the places that have high taxes because they have high quality infrastructure. I think that’s what the question really should focus on. Is this worth doing? What’s the value we get from this? More importantly, we look outside Florida, when you look at comparable Sunbelt cities it’s not going to be a – our tax will still be comparable if not lower than competing Sunbelt cities outside the state of Florida. So, I think what people want is they want value. They want a valuable infrastructure and the tax is not going to place us outside the range of what other competitive cities …
EO: Ok, so Charlotte, Atlanta – you’re telling me that they are still going to be at higher tax than…
BW: They have over 8% sales tax
EO: So what would we be at?
BW: We’d be right at 8%. We’d be competitive if not lower than other Sunbelt cities, and some of those other Sunbelt cities and states have Income Tax as well, which we don’t have here.
EO: I think the initial rail is running to the airport first, right?
BW: The initial plan is that it would run from the airport to downtown, including the West Shore area. The second part would be downtown up to USF, and eventually the Cross Creek area at Bruce B. Downs.
EO: So two rails, and really people running between downtown Tampa and USF. That’s a fraction of the transportation routes that are being run by car everyday, so these people that say ‘I’m not going to use it’ – It’s a legitimate complaint, right?
BW: Well, there’s clearly going to be some people who aren’t going to use it. First off – HART’s done a study of this – 43% of traffic takes place within the corridor that’s roughly going to be served by this light rail. So, everyday, even if not every person is going to use this, you’re either taking people off the roads within the corridors people are traveling or your giving them an alternative means of transportation in that corridor. And I think, as I’ve said, you’re getting people off the roads. So, it’s not just whether you’re a user of the light rail or not, but its also helping insure that our congestion doesn’t continue to build up and slow everybody down.
EO: Well, ok, I hear you, but let’s say I live in Brandon. I’m not going near that downtown to Tampa corridor, so what’s in it for me? How would people in Brandon care about this, or people in the Northeast part of the County?
BW: Well, a portion of it, we’ve been focused (talking) on light rail, but a portion of that tax is going to go fund road improvements throughout the county. It’s also going to fund a bus system that’s going to serve bigger area, bigger portion of the county. I think the third thing to keep in mind, I know people in Lutz and Brandon, and they say, “Well I don’t want more roads in my neighborhood. I don’t want more traffic.” And what we’re building here, which is a transit system which serves the entire Tampa Bay region, is about ensuring that we don’t have more roads. It’s about ensuring that we don’t just continue to over build our suburbs. So, I think a vote for this is a vote to help preserve the character of places like Lutz and Brandon.
EO: From a road perspective, Brandon, are they really going to see roads (and increase in transportation options) out of this. I mean is Brandon really going see…..They’re going to vote for a penny tax. Are they really going to see road (and transportation) development?
BW: There are projects across the county to fix different problems that have developed, and you can actually go – HART has a website they have developed where you can go neighborhood by neighborhood and find out what exactly is going to come to your portion of the neighborhood from this investment.
EO: That’s on the HART website?
BW: You go to HART and they have a special project page which is called the “HART alternative analysis” page, and you can type that in Google – H A R T, and you’ll get to the page and find it.
EO: Terrific. This thing is going to cost a lot of money. It seems to me like it’s really high. So let’s talk about that and whether this makes sense or not.
BW: I think people don’t realize how much money we’re spending on our road system. We’ve had some projects that haven’t been that controversial, like the I-4/Crosstown Connector, which everybody thinks is worth what we’re investing in. That project’s been priced out at $350m to complete it.
EO: Ok, so the Crosstown Connector is like a mile of road.
BW: It’s a mile of road.
EO: It takes you from the Port of Tampa, to I-4.
BW: It’s a great project. It’s going to get a lot of road traffic out of Ybor. It’s going to make Ybor more amicable to neighborhood development. It’s going to connect Crosstown and I-4 so that all those trucks from the Port don’t have to go through Ybor neighborhoods.
EO: What is the rail going to cost, let’s say the rail is going to run from Downtown Tampa to the Airport, what is that going to cost?
BW: Well there, they’ve got a couple different alternatives that they are considering, but you’re looking at roughly a $500-$600m price range for that portion of the rail. Another example, which is the north portion of that segment which would connect downtown to USF, that portion is coming in right under a billion dollars, about $900m. Well, the alternative to do that, if we don’t build up the rail capacity, we’re going to have to increase the capacity of the roads. So, we go from what’s an 8 lane road now to a 12 lane road. They’ve priced out that project and it’s going to cost $2.2 billion. So, for the same length of rail traffic, we’re less than half the price of what it would take to increase road capacity.
EO: So, to increase 275, you’re at $2.2 billion…. to build a rail, you’re at $900 million?
BW: That’s about right, yes.
EO: When you ask people around Hillsborough County, you hear this very frequently… “This is going to be a situation that we’re going to be funding forever.” And so, what do you say about that?
BW: Yeah, and I hear that all the time. That’s what people always say. They say we don’t want to build this if it’s not going to produce any income back. There was an editorial in the Tampa Tribune saying well they’re only going to get 8 or 9% of the revenue from the fare boxes. Well, I drove here from Clearwater today, and I didn’t pay anything. There were no tolls on my way here. So, they didn’t get any fare box revenue on my trip. I-275, Dale Mabry, Kennedy, Howard Franklin Bridges – They all don’t pay for themselves. The other part of that is we look at what we built with the rail system. People have studied the numbers, AAA, Forbes Magazine say that you’re looking at about $12,000 per household per year that gets devoted solely to car expenditures. So it’s incredibly expensive system pushing…
EO: Car expenditures meaning insurance on your car, gasoline…
BW: Car insurance, payments, gasoline, maintenance, new tires, oil changes, you know the whole thing – everything that looks into getting you where you need to go in your car. And, that cost is extraordinary. It’s pushed off to the individual users. So, sales tax is going to cost the average household about $125 per year, it’s about 1% what the household is spending on their car budget right now.
EO: Ok, well thanks again Brian. I do appreciate your time, and again, if you’re interested, you can find out more from the HART website and the Moving Hillsborough Forward website. Thanks again for joining us and for more information, can they contact you at Becker & Poliakoff.
BW: I’m at Becker & Poliakoff they can contact me. Our offices are in Clearwater. We serve the whole Tampa Bay region. Look for us on Google.
EO: Thank you, Brian!